Do we have an obligation to Newbies?

[Edwin]

After looking at everyones stats, I realized that for the most part, TL riders are a pretty experienced bunch. The majority of members here have at least 3 years of riding under their belt and the TL's they are riding aren't their first bikes.

Being an experienced bunch, do you feel that we have an obligation to "teach" the Newbies the ropes? Sport riding is a dangerous hobby/sport. Lets face it, crashes do happen, and people do get hurt, or worse. We all love riding, and the majority consider flying down the road with our head on fire as "riding". The more experienced members here have taken our share of lumps, and have become more seasoned because of it. Yeah, we made our mistakes and had our share of broken bones and dislocated joints. Nobody wants their Sunday ride ruined by a crash wether it be your own or one of the people you are riding with. It is with this in mind that I pose my question.

Being the most seasoned member still riding on the roads here I have been faced with this situation alot. I know that I am in no way responsible for any other rider on the hill other than myself, yet, if I were to look the other way when beginners are concerned I know that there would be a hell of a lot more crashes on my favorite road and as a result I have no doubt that more attention from our law enforcement agencies to that road would occur.

Shit happens. If anything my recent crash is a concrete example of this. I have been riding that road for over a decade, yet I crashed. My crash was minor and I do realize that it could have been way WAY worse for both Kelly and myself. So Kelly's bike got totalled, so what? Bikes can be repaired or replaced. Human life can't. I do what I can to share the knowledge I have pulled off the Mountain with those who ask, or are willing to listen but the fact of the matter is there are more and more newbies grabbing up every bike available that resembles a Sportbike and heading up to the Mountain everyday. This new crop has its share of Squids, and I can't help but feel as though it is only a matter of time before something bad happens. Without that road there is no reason for me to own a Sportbike. So where do we veterans draw the line? At what point, if any, does our responsibility to beginners start and end? By sitting back and doing nothing, are we in fact contributing to our own demise? I have no desire to be a mother hen to any of these fools but at the same time, I've got self preservation on my mind. What do ya'll think?

[DaRKoN_]

I think that's another excellent post!

I'm a mod over on the forum at CBR250.com. In Australia, the licensing regulations means that for the first year and a half or so, your are restricted in what type of bike you can ride. The CBR250 is one of the most popular models for learners. There is a lot of riders on there that were once 250 riders but have since upgraded (me included) and we run rides every couple of weekends and invite newbies out. We try and teach them to go their own pace, and to try and learn what they can by following the more experienced riders. We still have learners crash (nothing serious yet), but I think we are giving them a pretty good learning enviroment and a good skills basis to build on.

Many of these guys have only been riding for a couple of months, and when you start to throw some twisty roads at them it becomes a bit of a handfull, but we stress to take it easy, no one feels pressured to keep up with the faster riders, and learners of similar skill are able to learn a lot from each other. I'd like to think it helps them, and might save them from having a more serious crash later on.

[JarkkoT]

good post...

I'm always telling new ones to practice braking. Most of them think they can brake fine, but usually I show that I brake much faster and in shorter distange. Also track day is good advice to novice, he/she learns to lean and tight road curves don't feel like impossible turns.

Problem is that most people think they have been borned with perfect skill, and it usually takes time before they understand problems they have.

Sometimes I have told this example. Anyone can pick up a violin and hold it like they should. Anyone can make a sound. But they can't play for shit. That takes time, of cource some people learn faster then others, but experience comes only from driving. And hopefully the first mistakes are 'close ones', not actual hits.

in Bike shows and bikes shops big bikes with huge power draw attention and byuers, most of them have just driven cars before.
Jump to 180hp/170kg R1, all the power to one rear wheel. And newbies think they can handle it.

When I got my first bike I was perfect too...and newbie...

JT

[Schussboelie]

Edwin, I really feel for your issue.
Although your categorisation (is that a correct English word? you'll catch my drift) places me among the experienced riders (over three yrs riding, and although the TL was the first bike I owned myself, I drove my brothers 19 yr old Katana 550 and later his 21 yr old Honde VF Bol d'Or first a lot), I do not count myself in that range.
Especially not after my two crashes in the past Three years.
I guess I just don't put enough mileage in every year..

Anyway, being a little unexperienced, I try to take advice from others and learn as much as I can from better or more knowledgeable drivers. I do however recall the days when I first got my TLR. I was so proud and felt so tough on my big bad "One Liter Duck Eater". All I wanted to do is show off and make a lot of noise with it. Somehow I think most of the men (women arebetter that way I think) go through that squid - look at me, see how cool I am on my bike - phase.

It's only after a number of miles, crashes (friend s or the person himself) that one tends to realise it's not all that easy, that there is a lot to be learned. I believe those guys running up and down your mountain will come to realise that eventually, and that at that point they will be eager to learn from and listen to you and others. Even just looking at others may teach us a lot...

The problem is that these days, way too performant machines are available to newbies way too easy. 180 HP for 172 kilograms on the '04 R1, that's murder for a few of those boys, no doubt about it.

I guess there's really not much you can do pro-actively, you can't stop 'em and pull 'em of the road to teach them. Just give as much advice as you can when they feel like listening, give the good example so they have something to look at and learn from, answer questions, talk chit-chat to get acquainted(spelling on this one), direct to sites similar like this one, just try to get them informed as much as you can...

[SDTLR]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JarkkoT
[B] Anyone can pick up a violin and hold it like they should. Anyone can make a sound. But they can't play for shit.


Are you referring to the sweet, sweet music the TL puts out jk great analogy.

It all depends on the newbie, I'd like to think I've helped more than my share pick up good riding habits.:dunno

If the guy wants to listen and pay attention, I'll go on for days...but if he's a total squid and acts like he knows it all I have to , , and pray for his survival...


Try as we might, we can't save them all

[JarkkoT]

Someday someone will sue yamaha or other manufacturer for building too dangerous bikes for the public. Like they sued tobacco industry. Amazing it hasn't happened yet? Of course bikes are dangerous, but it would not take much effort from the manufacturer to make a bike that would not wheelie over. Like Tip over sensor which would cut ignition.

(With that every squid would just slam the throttle wide open and let the bike hit that wheelie limiter, -Look how good I am at wheelies-)

Like one antropologist said: probabilty of death in human life is 100% ...........no one has survived it yet

JT

[horkn]

tough call edwin. but i'm with the others. cant save them all, and hopefully the ones that want to know we can teach. being for the most part experienced riders, i think we should help those that ask. if they dont ask, then they are not taking the steps required when getting into any sport/ hobby. let alone one that can kill or mame... and schussboelie, yes categorization is a word....

[Schussboelie]

See!? I never stop learning!
Thanks Horkn.

[mbracey]

Good post Edwin, After 30 years of riding, I decided to become a MSF instructor and help both new and experienced riders alike. Been doing it for three years now and really enjoy it. One thing I learned is how many experienced riders are lacking in many areas, many don't know how to properly use there brakes (expecially the front ), they don't know how to corner correctly. These two areas along with alcohol result in many motorcycle crashes. About 90 percent of my students are cruiser riders and I would love to see more sportbikes in the classes.
When I started riding, I started on dirtbikes, a great place to start. By the time I was old enough to get a steetbike I had over 5 years of Motocross racing and riding behind me. The streetbikes of the mid - seventies were small by todays standards, but great to learn on. I had riden street for 4 years before I gat my first big bike ( Kawasaki 1000 ). Now I teach beginners who can hardly handle our 250cc trainer bikes who ask me if they should get the GSXR1000 or the new R1. It seems that nobody wants to start out on smaller bikes today and I think that in many cases thats a mistake.
No matter how long you have been riding, take an experienced rider course or a riding school at the local track every couple of years, it really sharpens your skills. Buy a used dirbike, that really helps bike control. But the biggist thing is to practice, expecially your advanced braking skills, and practice in the rain as well dry weather...

Ride Safe and Have Fun,
Mark

[dsly1]

I'm sorry for being a squid... thinkin about getting a personalized licence plate thats says "squid" .. I'm definately not a newbie and i enjoy playin with my bike. I'm sorry about your crash. Its funny, its always some big catsatrophy that makes ppl philosophical or religious and then all of a sudden the rest of us need to be saved .... I have crashed before doing 20 Kph in heavy traffic in the rain over a puddle of oil into the back of a truck.... so when its my time.. its my time and I plan to enjoy it while i can.

[Bugtooth]

Tough to say whether what I know and can teach is right? I have been to track days and ride with folks who are much better than I so I can learn from them - I am not sure if I would start telling a newbie how it should be done - I can pass on what has been passed on to me - But from what I have learned, I go by feel A LOT of the time - If I feel the bike and the road playing nice, than I know it is cool - When the 2 begin to disagree, I back off - How does one teach such a thing?

I grew up riding dirt where you just pushed it until the moment of dismount, which happened every ride - The jump to street was scary as hell for me - Can't really take a tumble, dust yer self off, fire the bike back up and try that one more time ??

May have gotten OT here, but even after my 20 + yrs of riding, I still think I have plenty to learn and always will. With every leg over, I bring home something new to think of.

[Chingus]

I myself still consider myself a beginner with only a year and some change riding. I'm thankfull for anyone who wants to tell/teach me anything. I haven't been down yet, but I know I will someday. As much fun as I like to have, I really try hard not to forget to respect motorcycling as a whole. And to me, that's the fun, the excitement, and the freedom of being out on the road. But it's also the danger and risk of an accident that's involved. I'm a firm believer in respecting the bike, and it'll respect you. So the day I DO go down, hopefully it won't be due to my own negligence. So thanks to all the "iron butts" out there for helping to keep me safe...

[LiononaLeash]

I have been riding for well over a decade... I have never crashed any of my bikes(I'll post a pic of my crash that will happen tonight cuz I said this).

Any Noobies in here should pay attention to what these most of these guys say. Its your life... you only get one... bikes are expensive to fix... it takes months and sometimes years for your body to heal from crashes(The more gear you wear... the better your chances of healing faster).

From my perspective... stunting is just asking for trouble... Plus... when you do do stunts... not many people are impressed with it. The thoughts that go through the minds of people that see you do these things are usually like "That is irresponsible" or "stupid" or "what a jerk"... even if the stunt is performed successfully. The crashes produce worse thoughts and oppinions of us sportbike riders.

Most crashes(without other traffic involved) on motorcycles are caused by the riders being irresponsible by riding outside of their capabilities. Whether you are a newbie or a seasoned rider that has been riding 40 years... Nomatter what your level of skill... you are a good rider if you can successfully stay within your limits... to improve your skill... you are a good rider if you can take baby steps outside of your limits so you are not too far from getting back to your comfort zone. Again, its very expensive to screw up.

Hmmm... where did this soapbox come from?

There are lots of guys in here with more experience than I have... some like to stunt. Nothing wrong with that. Some ride on the track regularly. Those guys are who to listen to as far as learning technique and being smooth with your bike.

My advice to newbies: Learn to be smooth... in control... aware of what is around you... ride as if you are invisible. Don't be concerned about perfecting a standup wheelie. That may be something down the road a while for you. Maybe not.

ok... I lost my train of thought... and I'm rambling now...

hmm... I wonder what I can eat for lunch...

<<<--- goes to the fridge

[Miles B]

I dunno about there, but here, you can't tell anyone jack shit.

The Australian guys will know the R1/GSXR demographic here.. you know what I'm saying. Once I tried to reason with a guy who had bought an R1 with basically no experience... he was telling me what power upgrades he was going to get.. the only gear he owned was crap gloves and an old helmet. I tried to get him to buy some leathers and take some track days before adding power (let's be honest - $2000 doesn't add much power anyway, but it can save your skin well)... but I just know as soon as he was done talking to me he was saying to all his buddies "that guy is a PUSSY mate.. now I'm going to get some FULLY SICK pipes and K&N.. my cousin Con says I will get 20hp".

All this tool talked about was how he did wheelies so far his front tyre smoked when he put it back down. Yeah. Right. The stories that come out of those guys...

[dsly1]

i stunt cause i like to stunt.. most of the time i'm all by myself..